Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns,soc.culture.british
From: [J M Spencer] at [newcastle.ac.uk] (J. Spencer)
Subject: Re: Hungerford Facts
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1993 14:34:56 GMT

[d--m] at [dcs.glasgow.ac.uk] (David Morning) writes:
>[a--y--r] at [nmsu.edu] (Nosy) writes:
>Not you Taylor, that's for sure. Here's what he said...
[I, being "he", said]
>>>>>>   Violent crime
>>< ><   >involving the most 'tightly' legislated (I won't say 'controlled'
>><><   >because the laws do not control them) category of guns, that is,
>><><   >handguns, have increased FOUR fold.

>So how about putting some numbers on these instead of all these vague 
>meanderings?

I did. Maybe you missed them. Maybe you've 'forgotten' them? But since
I'm the generous sort, here you are again:-

1979 348 reported offences in which a pistol was said to have been used
1988 1321 reported offences in which a pistol was said to have been used

That's a four fold increase in my book. Satisfied now? Oh, the source?
Annual Abstract of Statistics 191, page 62.

>>	The other point Morning doesn't want to address is: what
>>	was the rate (violent crime OR murder, choose one)
>>	prior to enactment of the law vs. after enactment of the
>>	law?

>Lets choose what proportion of ALL crime and look at how all crime involving
>a firearm has changed rather than the loaded selective group you've opted for 
>hmmm?

>And the answer is.. ALL crime in the UK has risen since 1968. In that same 
>period, according to Jeremy Spencer, violent crime involving a hand gun,
                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
who?

> his words the most tightly controlled group, rose 4 fold. If gun control had

no, my words were "tightly ***legislated***" I specifically rejected
the term 'controlled'. You quote me in the text you posted, and then
deliberately mis-quote me. Why?

>NO effect on crime, one would expect the level of violent crime involving a 
>handgun to remain as the same proportion of all crime and rise at the same 
>rate as all crime. If gun control had a detrimental effect, violent crime rates 
>involving firearms would soar past the underlying trend. If gun control had an 
>effect, then the expectation would be for violent handgun crimes to lag behind 
>the underlying trend. 

>So the question for Jermey is..has ALL crime risen by more or less than 4
>fold since 1968? 

Bollocks, it isn't a question for me. If that is what **you** want to
argue then it is for you to do your own homework you lazy sod. Go and
look it up yourself - it's your postulation not mine.

[munch]

>Deleted as to spare your blushes. Indicate which criminals in the UK use
>semi-automatic weapons please? 

Terrorists, or hadn't you noticed?

>Most popular *real* weapon is a sawn off
>shotgun followed by a handggun (but most popular of all, particularly for a
>bank robbery, is a blank firing replica available without any restriction
>for 100 quid at any 'sporting' emporium here.

Table 3.6, page 62, shows that for robberies during 1988, there were
used

long-barrelled shotgun 241
sawn-off shotgun       451
pistol                 1321
rifle                  12
imitation firearm      185
supposed firearm       334
other firearm          42
                      ====
total                 2688

So we can see that David has got it wrong once again, the most popular
weapon is the most tightly legislated but clearly not the most tightly
controlled (ie pistols), sawn-off shotgun are the **second** most common
weapon used for bank robberies. 

--Jonathan