Here's an update on my poorly worded 'Magazines' question a few months ago. Kind of appropriate now that the Crime Bill containes an even *more* restrictive law than the proposed California legislation. The question was, how easy is it to manufacture magazines? First, Doug Gwyn (ACISD/MCSB) <[g--n] at [BRL.MIL]> corrrects me on terminology: First off, we should get the terminology straight. A "round" or a "cartridge" is the object that is inserted into the "ammunition feeding device". There are two common kinds of ammunition feeding devices: a "clip" attaches several rounds together but does not totally enclose them; clips were used on the M1 rifle but aren't very common these days. A "magazine" is basically a box with a spring-loaded piston that compresses the rounds toward a "lip" where enough of the topmost round is exposed to permit the gun's mechanism to strip the round off and feed it into the chamber. Virtually all semiautomatic weapons in common use take magazines, not clips. Many people call magazines "clips", but they're imprecise when they do that. As to manufacture, in principle it's not hard for a skilled machinist. Some magazines are all plastic (except for the spring and feed lips) while others are all steel. But the important point is that there is NO VALID PURPOSE SERVED by any such magazine restriction -- it only takes a round or two to kill a person, and with lower-capacity magazines there is very little time lost in switching an empty magazine for a fresh one. Most professionals carry spare magazines. Any notion that the problem is "spraying" by fully-automatic weapons as in drive-by shootings still isn't really addressed by magazine limitations; fully automatic weapons are already tightly regulated, and the main problem (as with all attempts to reduce crime by gun control legislation) is that the criminals simply ignore the laws. The only ones affected, adversely, by such legislation are law-abiding citizens, who demonstrably are NOT a problem. (For example, with tens of thousands of licensed handgun carriers in Florida, which has a mandatory permit issuance law, practically no crimes have been committed by permit holders.) In my opinion, supporters of such legislation fall into two main camps: (a) intentionally deceiving the public into thinking that something is being done about real problems instead of actually tackling the real problems; (b) naively believing what the P.C. "liberal" leaders and media say. You probably can't do much about people in the first camp, but it might help to enlighten people in the second. ==== Herbert Leong ([g--y] at [futon.SFSU.EDU]) tales about presses and dies: Most mags that are metal will need die to shape the mag walls the dies need to be machined at a machine shop. once the dies are made, it is only a matter of pressing the metal and spot welding the seams, adding a decent spring and putting in a follower (also can be made in the machine shop). If the dies exist, you're looking at about 20-30 mags in a hour if you do it by hand. if you have an automated press set up, you're looking at about 1000-10000 in a hour, depending on your setup. Exercise in Futility 101 as far as that law goes :) ps: Do you know if existing mags are grandfathered? [Answering the wrong question: Feinstein's assault weapons ban seems to grandfather existing mags; I can't afford such a gun now, but I am going to see if I can decide on a gun to buy, and then just buy some mags.] ======== Henry Schaffer ([h--s] at [unity.ncsu.edu]) talks about extending existing magazines, and the ease of just using multiple magazines, and then discusses the speed of *single-shot* weapons: It is somewhat hard to make magazines - particularly because the exact shape of the "lips" is so very important for perfect functioning. However it is *much* easier to extend an existing magazine - it just takes something to attach to the end and a longer spring. >What tools are required, and what specialized knowledge? Of course, it's It's working with sheet metal - so it takes presses and sheet metal breaks - there probably are many tens of thousands of shops which can handle such jobs. The really ironic thing is that it is quick to change box magazines, so that even if the criminals have to change from one 10 round magazine to another it takes so little time that it is inconceivable that any benefit can come from this restriction even if criminals obey it. I'm attaching something I wrote which relates to this topic. --henry schaffer With all this talk about people using non-fully-automatic guns to "spray" bullets around, I decided to do a little experiment on how well one could "spray" bullets with a particular non-fully- automatic firearm. I should mention that I am of the firm opinion that *all* firearms are dangerous, and that the distinctions made by many (mainly anti-gun) people about how they are only against "dangerous" guns are quite specious. These people point out that Hennard could kill 23 (?) people in the Luby's Cafeteria only because he carried two semi-automatic pistols which could "spray" bullets, and that the very dangerous "assault" weapons that "spray" bullets should be stringently regulated or banned because of their extreme danger. Hennard only had 10 minutes for his rampage before the police came and his murder spree was terminated. How much safer would society have been if there were no such high-tech modern (well - the technology is only about 100 or so years old, so it certainly is modern, --- geologically speaking) guns such as semi-automatic pistols. In fact, what if there weren't even revolvers. What about single shot handguns? So I took a single shot handgun with a break-open action. To fire a shot just pull the bottom of the trigger guard back and the rear of the barrel tips up. The extractor pulls out the empty case almost 1/4" and one grasps the empty with one's finger tips and pulls out the case the rest of the way. Then a new cartridge is pushed into the chamber down to where its rim touches the extractor and then the barrel is swung back down to lock in place. All that is then necessary to fire is to cock the hammer and then pull the trigger. Oh yes, it would be valuable at that time to aim the gun first. (This is a T/C Contender in .357 Magnum.) I put 10 cartridges in my jacket pocket, took an empty gun and paced off 5 yards from the target, started my timer and blazed away spraying bullets downrange until I was out of ammo. I got 8 of the 10 shots in a square about 2" x 2", with one more shot about 2" higher and one 2" lower. It took me 87 seconds, or 8.7 seconds per shot. It would have been less if I started with a loaded gun, and if I had practiced this speed firing before. Extrapolating from this, it would take less than 3 1/2 minutes to fire 23 aimed shots. I think that this answers my question, and confirms that all firearms are dangerous. Anyone who denies this is either uninformed or trying to divert attention from this for some anti-gun purpose. --henry schaffer n c state univ ===== And Erik Scott <[e--co--t] at [eos.ncsu.edu]> discusses *which* magazines should be easier to manufacture: It's fairly easy to make a magazine. The hardest part is the spring, and, well, if you can't make a spring, maybe you shouldn't be shooting? With that said, some mags are going to be easier to make than others. Colt 1911-style mags should be easy, Ruger P-85, -89, -90 mags should be easy. Making a low-capacity Glock mag should be easy, the hard part is to make a spring that can deal with the wide pressure ranges. A time-honored job is cutting up three 1911 mags and TIG-welding them to form a 14-round magazine. And Bob Hale discusses the components and cost-effectiveness: Regarding magazine manufacture, you need four basic cmponents for the usual magazine: the body, the follower, the spring, and the floor plate. All but the spring are normally sheet metal. You would need tools, including dies of the right size and shape for the magazine lips, to be able to make the sheet metal parts. The spring would require a spring winder which could use a non-round mandrel and you would need suitable mandrels (not easy to make). Magazine making would require a small machine shop and would be cost prohibitive for most people. Thanks to everyone for their responses. Jerry Stratton [j--r--y] at [teetot.acusd.edu] (Finger/Reply for PGP Public Key) ------ "I think C is a wonderful programming language, and I hope all my competitors make full use of it." -- Tom Pittman