Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,talk.politics.misc From: [b 645 zaw] at [utarlg.uta.edu] (stephen) Subject: Mt Carmel and Faith // pt 2 of 3 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 06:44:00 GMT Transcript of phone conversation between myself, and Livingstone Fagan from Saturday evening, July 24th. --- Beginning of Part 2 of 3 --- s: ...Operator I accept the charges. Yes, I'm here Livingstone. l: Right. We're dealing with The Book. When Christ came 2000 years ago, that Spirit of God, which is really the expressed thought of God in the flesh, was made available to mankind in a flesh form, something they can identify with. When Christ was killed that Spirit was commended into the hands of The Father. John looked up to see the judgement, and saw in the hand of The Father, a Book, sealed with 7 seals. In Revelation 22, He's to return again, with the intention of commu- nicating the contents of that Spirit. Now that Spirit is Life -- Eternal Life. That's what they rejected at The Cross. Now, the thing about it is, that the issue is, "What is that Book?" Well the whole scene of Christ's returning is depicted in summary form in Revelation, chapter 10-11. s: Summary form? l: In summary form, yes. The actual details of it, is the subject matter of the 7 Seals, but it's summarized in those 2 chapters, 10 and 11, of Revelation. You see an Angel, a strong Angel, that comes to the earth, with a Book -- opened. That's of course, the Book that was in the hand of The Father, in Revelation chapter 5. Now, in the 7th verse, ahmm, it is stated clearly that the voice of the 7th angel, when He shall begin to sound, the mystery of God, which is the content of the 7-Seals. And note the statement, "the mystery of God." Everybody seeks to know God, but the mystery is contained in the 7-Seals. The mystery of what God really is. That is the essential knowledge that is missing from humani- ty. Now, as I stated, the voice of the 7th Angel, when He begins to sound, the mystery of God will be *finished*... s: Yes. I recall. l: ...as He hath declared, to his servants, The Prophets. Do you follow? s: I understand. l: Now the content of that Book was already declared to The Prophets. The 7-Seals, if you go back to the summary that is given of the Seals, as the Lamb opens them in chapter 6 onwards; you will see certain information. Now, as I mentioned before to you, people have sought to interpret that information. Do you follow? s: With their human understanding... l: Exactly. s: ...rather than with the Mind of God, which is Scripture. l: Precisely. Yes, you got the point. The fact is that only One can open that information in the first place. The Lamb, yes?? Mankind can not do it, because you're dealing with information which is synonymous with the Mind of God. Now can the human mind comprehend the things of God? Being in it's humanity, it's impossible. Therefore it has to be revealed to him. Hence, the only way it can be done is for Christ, or rather Christ being The Word, the expressed thoughts of God, to come into the realm of humanity. s: Now let me... let me, I don't want to throw you off, but I do want to ask two very important questions. l: Go ahead. s: When Christ... when Jesus came, Jesus, as it was written -- He made that reference very, very often -- "as it is written"... l: Precisely. s: He knew from early on, from a very young time -- The Scriptures... l: Precisely. s: ...very well. The Word indwelled Him. l: Precisely, yes. s: And, this is a lesson. The lesson we find that also happened to Koresh. The parallel is there. The Word working in Koresh... l: Exactly! As you're bringing it up, you're bringing it out. Christ could only quote Scripture 2000 years ago. And a lot of the Scriptures have to be received purely by faith, even though at the time, they did not meet the perceptions of the human mind. Because, really they were written from the premise of the eternal mind. You follow? s: Oh, yes! l: So humanity can not of itself comprehend them. What humanity does is to receive The Scripture by faith. Having, receiving...In the process of receiving a progressive knowledge of the Revealed Truth, declared as Scriptural -- the human mind will be elevated to the place where it can comprehend *over time* that information. s: Yes. There's a gestation period. l: Precisely. Humanity has actually been taken out of it's *human* thinking, and elevated to the divine thinking, which is what 2nd Peter talks about in 1-4. Through the knowledge of God... s: You say in 2nd Peter 1... l: 2nd Peter chapter 1 verses 1-4. s: ok [The Promises of God] l: Through the knowledge of God, as revealed in the Scriptures, humanity becomes a partaker of the divine nature. What a person thinks -- is what he is. s: Ok, I hear that. Now, I'm wondering this, ok? l: Go ahead. s: It's clear to me that there is a marriage. l: Right. s: In The Marriage of The Lamb... l: Ok. s: ... here the Bride comes. Now to me, (this may be my mind), in other words I may be reading into it, or I may be inspired in this, I don't know. But as best I can tell, The Marriage of The Word, The Marriage of The Lamb (same entity) -- with The Spirit, The Bride, which is The Comforter -- is accomplished in each one of us. l: Right. As you received, *received* that Spirit. Let me go back to show you where the basis of that concept of the marriage comes from. s: ok l: It goes back to the book of Genesis. When God created Adam, Adam was a lifeless form, alright? s: Yes, clay! Dust of the earth. l: Exactly. What gave him life, was when the Breath of God, entered him. That breath joined with the clay -- in the actual marriage -- the prin- ciple. You follow? s: ok l: Now...ahm, The Breath itself, or The Light, (which is what John is referring to in John chapter 1), the light that lighteth everyman that cometh into the world, is to have an expression. It's not just light as we see light. There is detail to it. There is form, feature. There is ah, how can I explain it? It has a definition; it has meaning, it has expression, it's got autonomy. Do you understand what I'm talking about? s: I think I do. I would not have put it only in terms of light, which is a type of signal... l: Uh huh. s: ...but the word, which is also a type of signal. For instance, when some very powerful statement is made, such as "Love your enemies"... Ok? l: Uh huh. s: And that thought, that word, that signal, orders, I mean structures, how people act. l: Exactly. s: It structures matter itself. l: Precisely. s: Without that ordering we'd be just like the Moon... l: Ok. s: ...pure dust. l: Ok. So you can see that the Word expressed has ahmm -- creative po- tential. It has ahhh, I'm still struggling to find a word to express... Well if you look at humanity, as separate from divinity, (because really, what humanity fails to appreciate at any given time is that there is an element of divinity in it)... s: That's right. l: ... it's just that -- it's been *blocked*. It's not allowed to take expression, or give expression within the human personage. Had it been allowed to do so, then humanity would conform to it. s: "Conform" is a very telling word there. l: Oh, . When I say conform, the reason why it is not allowed in humanity en masse to give general expression, is because of the human free will. s: Exactly. l: The Mind of God, or The Will of God, is expressed in that word. Human beings have the freedom to actually allow or surrender it's will, to the divine will, or they can continue in the light of their own understand- ing, which is really darkness. It extends purely from the clay. s: It extends from the...? l: The clay. The body, the lusts of the body. Most of the reasoning, most of the constructions and institutions established by man, are not in themselves possessed of anything divine. They are basically based upon the lusts of man; like for example, there are 3 major ones: food, reproduction and [maintaining] life. Most of the institutions that exist in society are based purely upon these 3 lusts. s: Yes, very much so. But this then is what we expect of an organism with a 5 pound brain -- 5 pounds of meat. l: Right, exactly. Exactly. But there is a divine... the ability for a divine element within humanity. Unfortunately in this day and age, with its degeneracy, debaseness, that element has been blocked, (and it's unable to give expression to itself), somehow internally, from within man. And it's for that reason as it is now, there was a necessity for it to come on the outside. Do you follow? s: Yes, as a leadership principle. l: Precisely. To draw men to a knowledge of that which is within. That's why Christ kept on saying, "The Kingdom of God is within you." And He was trying to bring it out, to bring man to an appreciation of that principle. The fact is, to be quite frank -- God is thought! s: Ok. You say, "God is thought?" l: Thought! And the expression of that thought is THE WORD, which is Christ. s: ok l: And the manifestation of, the embodiment of, thought expressed -- is man. s: ok l: So for man to throw out God, is really actually dishonoring himself. In the process, you can see, you'd become debased, degenerate to the level of beasts, which is really what we have today. s: Yes! No Spirit indwelling. l: That's right! s: Like a machine, there's nothing there. l: Exactly. s: Like a whore, there's nobody home. l: Right. s: Like a mercenary, who do things just for the external... l: Exactly. s: ok l: And until the Thoughts of God, once again re-establish in man those Thoughts, (and those Thoughts are written in The Book, sealed with 7- Seals)... until those Thoughts are re-established then man does not have God within him. All he has is the potential... s: ok l: ... to have God. Now, that's what the 7-Seals were designed to address. That's what that Spirit that Christ was trying to give 2000 years ago, which was rejected... and bear in mind in Luke 23, I think verse 34, "Father, forgive them; for they *know* not what they do." They're in a state of ignorance. s: Yes. l: And until they receive that Spirit which was commended in the hand of the Father, they can not have that element of God within them, which become the directing principle of humanity. So, then what happens is you begin to have external government. All men were supposed to be governed from within -- they were their own kings and priests, but now we have an external form of government, like what you can see in the United States probably, and what is devel- oping on an international scale, via the United Nations, is oppressive. And there is no way to stop that. Not until that Spirit, which is what God is, that Thought, enters humanity. But the current thinking of man, which is born of the flesh is temporal, and when the body dies it will die too. But the eternal Thought of God (which is the Spirit which Christ sought to give, which is placed in the hand of The Father in the form of The Book Sealed With 7-Seals) is eternal. To receive God you are actually receiving The Eternal, an eternal spirit which enables you to live forever. The problem here is that uhm, rather not the problem, but whether someone can be saying[?] that more closely, ahh, the life substance of humanity is actually the thought of God, in man. It's your thought that gives you motivation, your life-substance. It is your thought, rather the more thought you have, the more life you have. You follow? s: So far, so good. I'm curious about, I know that in a union, in a marriage union... l: Uh huh. s: ... the same flesh must join, ok? l: Right. s: So, I'm comfortable with the... l: Let me try to address that point. s: ok l: The spirit that is in man, is that which is separate from the Spirit of God, God's Spirit. And it's born... the human spirit is born, as I mentioned, of the lusts of man, and is essentially a homosexual spirit. Do you follow what I'm saying? It's of itself. s: It's of self, yes. l: That's right it's homosexual. s: Yes, it's for-self, of-self, yes. l: Ahh, what you might have had a tendency to do, is uhhh... you see that selfishness expressed in man, and everything that is consumed on this earth (even other people) is consumed for the purpose of self. Now, the Spirit of God in man predominating (which is really the Will of God) -- facilitates trust, and all those other positive virtues (above all *selflessness*, as was demonstrated on the Cross and also here) as demonstrated here at Mt Carmel, (where the people were prepared to surrender their existence for the Truth which they hold), -- is that Spirit which is associated with God as a Thought, guiding their thoughts. s: The world will ask do you mean suicide? l: Well, we've got to go back to Christ. I can address that simply by saying *no*, it was not suicide. But I'd like you to see it in the context of Christ 2000 years ago. Now Christ knew that His course of action was eventually going to end up with him being killed, in some way, shape or form. Because the capi- tal form of punishment at that time was the Cross, it was the inevitable one that was going to be chosen. Can you see that? s: Yes. l: Would you conclude from that, that Christ was the harbinger of his own suicide? s: If He knew full well that if He continued in the path He was in, yes, it would result in His... l: His death. s: Yes, His death. l: Do you conclude that His was a suicide from that situation? s: You understand the world want's to see it as a suicide because that's a "self-motive"?! l: Precisely. And that's what they should have concluded about Christ 2000 years ago, yes?? From the same premise. Well, the truth about it is that I know that the sincere of heart will be able to see, of a truth, that this has got nothing to do with suicide. The thing about it is, that along about 2000 years ago, say in 1st century Palestine, had they received Christ, then He would not have had to die, yes? s: Oh, absolutely. l: "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." That forgive- ness would not have been needed, because they would have received what Christ had to give them. It's a similar situation here. I mean David sought to present the 7- Seals, that is clear to the sincere, they can see that. s: Some people will have a hard time with seeing the 7-Seals as being a separate book than the Bible. l: I did not conclude it to be a separate book than the Bible. What I'm saying is that, that same sealed book, was the same sealed book that Daniel, in chapters 10 through 12, was dealing with. s: Yes. l: In Daniel chapter 12, it was told by the Angel that brought Daniel to Elijah... and incidently in Daniel chapter 9, Daniel was making refer- ence to specifically the book of Jeremiah, the prophet, but also mention was made of the other prophets, and indeed Moses. Now, it was out of those books, that the Angel was teaching Daniel, the information recorded in chapters 11-12. And at the conclusion, Daniel was told to close the book, and to seal it until the time of the end. So, at the time of the end, the book will be unsealed. But this was the same book Ezekiel had to deal with, and you'll find that in chapter 10, well it's... yes in chapter 10, the latter part. Ahhh, when John was told to take the book, it was going to be sweet as honey in his mouth, and bitter in his belly; that was the same thing that Ezekiel had to deal with in chapter 4 and chapter 5 of Ezekiel. You follow? s: Precisely, yes. l: Now, the issue is, that this book, that was actually in heaven is somewhat different than the book is on the earth, although the informa- tion is noted in the Scriptures. Do you follow? s: Are saying that the Bible is a physical manifestation of the spiritu- al book? l: Precisely! That's right. Good. In other words, as stated very clearly in Peter, the prophets which comprise the Bible, the information that they wrote was via the illumi- nation of the Spirit, yes? So they speak, so all the prophets speak of this one message, and that information is contained in what we call the Old Testament. Effectively. Because really, the New Testament is just a record of an event, Christ's coming 2000 years ago -- to give that Spirit. That's all it was. The primary purpose of Christ 2000 years ago was to give His Spirit. Now, He didn't even get a chance to be accepted as a messenger from God. Do you follow? s: Yes, very much so. l: For that reason, He never communicated that Spirit. If the world would not accept Him as a messenger from God, then obviously they were not gonna accept what He said. And eventually they will not accept the One Who sent Him. Which He constantly ahh, ahm, made mention of, in the Gospel of John. s: Yes, "if you reject the one who comes in my name... l: So if they... s: ...certainly you're going to reject Me when I come too," would be God's point. Yes. l: So, if they rejected him, and as I mentioned, 2000 years ago they did reject him, but the question is from that time forward the life-force that has facilitated the continuation of humanity has been basically this statement, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." We've been living on that. That is not Life, that is just grace. Life is as John 6:63 says, "the words I speak ... they are spirit... they are life." And that Spirit was committed into the hands of the Father. So, until we receive that spirit in man, he does not possess life, he's merely living on grace. But grace is not an eternal thing -- it has an end. Now the thing is that while humanity was in the position of where they were resting or living on the basis of "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do" Christ was caught in a trap. Because as long as humanity was in a state of ignorance, He could not judge the world. s: The Law originally came to ensure that they were not in a state of ignorance. l: But with the statement, `Father, forgive them, for there ignorance' - - If God was to honor that statement, He'd have to forgive them. But there had to be a way for God to communicate this truth to break that deadlock. To invalidate that law, `Forgive them, for they don't know what they do,' and this was done at Mt Carmel. Inasmuch as, once I sit here and speak to you, Stephen -- you are aware of the 7-Seals, yes? s: I am aware of the 7-Seals, and I think I can point to the 7-Seals in the New Testament. Now, that may be different than what you understand. l: Precisely. Well actually, the 7-Seals are not... other than what is recorded in Paul, rather "in John" -- the 7-Seals are not in the New Testament. There are allusions that Paul makes for example, or allusive statements that are made in The Parables, that Christ speaks of. But I'm afraid the detail is far, far greater, than you can imagine. s: ok l: The actual detail, or the context of the 7-Seals is contained in the Old Testament. David did give a basic reference to specific books, like for example: Psalms, Zechariah, Hosea, Ezekiel with respect to the 1st 4 Seals. But then to deal with the other 3, which they are so extensive, in the Old Testament, ahmm, the information contained in the Old Testa- ment, that it is very difficult to actually bring them to the perception of humanity without changing the context within which humanity operates. In other words, humanity, within it's human thinking can not appreci- ate the 7-Seals. No more than they could appreciate Christ, 2000 years ago. No more than they can appreciate what David is really about. I'm trying to be as frank and as truthful as possible, and I hope you can see that in my context Stephen. s: It's necessary. Keep going. l: So I'm faced with a situation here that it's very... I can't communi- cate the 7-Seals. That's outside of the realms of my operation. I can speak in respect to their origin, where they can be found. I can show you the consistency of doctrine, that was shown to us as they relate to the 7-Seals, to demonstrate, and beyond any doubt, that David Koresh taught us the 7-Seals. It's in the context of the 7-Seals that we are now living. Because really, the 7-Seals basically highlight the Purposes of God as they relate to this world. That's what we're dealing with. But the marriage that God is teaching is a union between the divine and the human. That is The Marriage... s: ok l: ... and it's Principle, and it's Expressed Form. It's the tantamount to humanity becoming equal with God. s: As "Children" though? l: Well no. It goes beyond that. It... it goes beyond that. Remember when Christ came -- in the flesh -- He was depicted as the Son of God. Right? s: Yes. l: Outside of the flesh, in His divinity -- He is God. You follow? s: Spiritually, and in the eternal present, Yes. l: Yes. Eventually, we were supposed to transcend the flesh. Remember, ...well actually, I can't say remember, because I doubt very much whether you were there during the Garden of Eden. But the thing is, Adam and Eve were created in the likeness of God. Ok. As children. And as children, they were confined, because of the flesh they were housed in, the clay pots. It's that clay pot, to which they were contained in just facilitated the process of maturing in humanity, The Will of God, and the divine purpose. So that they themselves would become God. That's where we get the statement in Psalms 82, where he talks about God goes among the gods, and `know ye not that ye are gods?' Christ men- tioned it Himself, 2000 years ago, which caused great consternation among the Pharisees. s: Well it should. Now let me, lemme interject... and I'm going to ask a hard question... l: Go ahead. s: ...because in my walk with Jesus, I've found that anything that has any form of seduction in it is usually of the devil. l: I agree with you. s: It's a seduction, or so it seems to me, to be offered the Godhood. l: "It's a seduction to be offered the Godhood." Well, here's the thing. Let me just try to demonstrate it on the most basic premise of humanity. You have the family unit which consists first of all of a mother and father. Yes? s: You have something human? l: The family unit. s: The family unit. l: The family unit, which is headed by a mother and a father. They have children, yes? s: Yes. l: Eventually those children themselves grow into becoming mothers and fathers themselves, alright? s: Oh, yes. l: The only difference between those children and the mothers and fathers which bare them, is that the mothers and fathers were first... s: Yes. l: ... in their status of mother and fatherhood. Yes? s: Yes, very much. l: That is the only difference ultimately that was supposed to exist, between God and his children. And anyway, they too ere to obtain unto that position. I mean listen, there's a great big universe out there... s: Yes, huge. l: ... and that universe is for His Children. s: That's right. l: And there are going to be provinces that they populate with their own creations. Do you understand what I'm saying to you? s: Ah, yes -- it's grand. But now I need to make another hard question. l: Go ahead. s: We know that the end-time comes when the son-of-perdition, when satan-incarnate, stands up, as he's tried to do before, in caesar and pharaoh, and others -- as the world ruler -- and says "I am God." l: Precisely. You see this in Isaiah chapter 14 and Ezekiel 28. These 2 chapters develop this concept very well. Now, I can understand that from what has been reported in Mt Carmel, someone could perceive Mt Carmel this way. That is interesting... that we should have a lone person, like what we're dealing with here, saying that he is God, or rather, he didn't say he was God, and in fact he didn't say he was Christ, which was what was reported. What David actually said was "let me address for you the 7- Seals." In other words, the 7-Seals, as Revelation chapter 1:1 says, speaking about what God gave... what The Father gave to The Son, or to The Lamb. In Revelation 1, it says it's a revelation of Christ. So if you know the book, you would be able to identify Christ in the earth. You under- stand? s: I... Telephone Company Recording: "ATTENTION, ONE MINUTE REMAINING." l: For he's the One revealing The Book. You follow? s: The One who is able to unseal The Book, is Christ operating in the earth?? l: That's right. And it's true, from a knowledge of Him unveiling The Book, can you make a judgement of whether He's Christ. Which is what I was privileged, along with the others who are with me right now, to experience, during the 4 1/2 to 5 years that I was listen- ing to David, during His teachings at Mt Carmel. s: Livingstone, how would you explain... and you're going to have to call back. How would you explain then, Christ was killed a second time. l: How would I explain He was killed? Well, let me ask you. How many times did Moses strike the rock? Can you recall? One of the rocks during the wilderness journey, was a symbol of Christ. --- End of Part 2 of 3 ---