From: "Perry W. Brown" <[p--r--y] at [prairie.lakes.com]>
Newsgroups: alt.politics.org.batf,alt.conspiracy,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,misc.legal,soc.history,alt.war.vietnam
Subject: Re: Waco/Ruby Ridge Hearings
Date: 9 Aug 1995 07:32:11 GMT

[h--se--n] at [indirect.com] (Scott Alan Malcomson) wrote:
>: Stratosfear <[j--e] at [crossburn.batf.gov] (Dave Dahlman/Muy Groso)> writes:
>: > CS gas is harmless. Every GI who has ever gone through 
>: > basic-training has had to experience the stuff in a 
>: > chamber...without gas masks. Stings alot.
>
>Yep, it does. I've been there. Guess how long GIs get exposed to it? Less 
>than a minute. NOT hours on end. In fact, the stuff WE got hit with was 
>CS2...a LESS powerful irritant. Gas chamber training is supposed to teach 
>us the value of wearing a protective mask and gear properly, not put us 
>down for the count. I defy you to take somebody's baby into a boot camp 
>chamber, too, and stay inside for more than fifteen minutes. Wear 
>protective gear, if you like. If you come outta there and aren't charged 
>for killing that baby or at the very least giving it severe permanent 
>lung damage, I'll trumpet your glories to the skies.

>---LCD

You know, it surprises me that I haven't seen comments like this before.
I watched a good part of the hearings, and from the discussions of the
so called "experts" on CS gas, you'd have thought it was better for you
than wall oxygen in the hospital.  I was in a CBR unit at Fort Lewis
during the late '60's and was in charge of exposing recruits to various
gasses.  In the "chamber" (which was often a tent in the field) the 
recruit was exposed to CN not CS gas!!  The recruit was first
trained in the proper use and fitting of his gasmask, sent into the CN
tent (chamber) and then one by one ordered to remove his mask.  He was
asked a series of questions (obviously requiring him to expend the air
he'd stored up in his lungs before removing his mask) and allowed to only
inhale a small amount of CN until he started coughing and tearing
profusely.  He was then led out of the chamber and led around by the
hand (or collar, depending on who was doing the leading) and pointed
into the wind to allow the CN to evaporate.  We did not encourage the
use of water to wash the skin or eyes as we found that this practice
only intensified the burning sensation.  We had people who were
completely blinded by this brief exposure for a half an hour or more.

We only had CS gas available (for our use) in the form of gernades.  CS gas
was considered so bad the we were only allowed to use it
 on recruits in THE OPEN and never in enclosed areas.  Everyone referred to
CS gas as "chicken shit."  We were only allowed to "pop"
grenades of it amongst the recruits after they had been properly trained with
CN and were familiar with ITS effects.  When the recruits were recalled to
formation after a CN exposure and recovery period, we'd stand up wind
and toss 2-3 gernades into their ranks and watch the rush to properly
apply and clear their masks.  Invariably, we'd get a half dozen or so
that wouldn't get their masks on soon enough and begin vomiting as well
as developing snot down to their knees.  Others would get their masks on
in time but wouldn't properly clear them and end up vomiting in their
masks.  Some even aspirated the vomit, earning themselves a trip to the
infirmary.  You see CS gas does this!  Not only does it irritate the
mucous membranes and skin, but it also causes profuse & uncontrollable
vomiting.  Now remember, this was in the open air, and usually with a
breeze blowing.  The stuff was so bad and permeated the clothing to the
point that even an hour or so later when everyone was loaded back into
covered trucks, that the recruits again found it necessary to reapply
their gas masks to keep from again experiencing the effects of the CS
gas.  Of course, reapplying the masks didn't stop the skin from feeling
like it was on fire.  It was an experience that no recruit wished to 
experience too often and certainly, no matter how dim, would soon forget.
I've seen big guys exposed to the effects of CS gas without the
benefit of a gasmask who said at the time they wished they were dead...
and you know what, I believed them.

Did the CS gas have any permanent effects (the only question asked in
hearings that I recall).  None that I was aware of...except for those
who aspirated their vomit and had to have it removed by a doctor.  But
then we were not allowed to use it indoors.  I did, years later, see it
used by the police on a guy who held up and then hid in a gas station.

One, ONE, CS gas gernade was tossed in and the guy finally fell
through a plate glass window (making his own opening), vomiting and
with snot again down to his knees.  The gas station could not be used for the
better part of a week because the gas had permeated everything.  But in
this case, it did get the bad guy out.

Permanent effects?  I just don't know.  All I do know is that it is hell
to be exposed to CS without a mask.  I wonder what would be like for a
masked mother to be holding her baby, while it was vomiting, tearing
and suffering from the general effects of the gas?!

pwb