From: [f--h--e] at [amd.com] Reply-To: [f--h--e] at [amd.com] Errors-To: [flashlife control] at [amd.com] Subject: Flashlife V2 #4 To: [f--h--e] at [amd.com] From: Carl Rigney (moderator) <[flashlife control] at [amd.com]> Flashlife Wed, 24 Apr, 1991 Volume 2 : Issue 4 Today's topics: Re: Artistic skills: Too much detail? (ANANDA) New concentrations and specializations for skills (ANANDA) Ghosts (Mary Kuhner) Dragonbreath (Christopher Gulledge) How to make players think? (Christopher Gulledge) Re: Fire & making players think (Carl Rigney) Re: How to make players think (Christopher Gulledge) Imaging Systems / Essence Rebuilding (Robert Hayden) Shadowrun ideas (Andrew David Weiland) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1991 15:11 CST From: ANANDA%[BSU DECNET] at [MSUS1.BITNET] Subject: Re: Artistic skills: Too much detail? >> is me > is Carl >>Instrumental music >>(conc) instrument family--e.g. saxaphone, clarinet, flute, guitar, >> synth, etc. >>(spec) specific instrument--e.g., atlo sax, bass guitar, etc. >[I think you're getting into too much detail - Music is a skill, >vocal or instrumental is a concentration, guitar is a specialization. To make the stucture you propose analagous to something else: weapons should be a skill, firearms or gunnery a concentration, and pistols a specialization. Specific weapons? Well, that would be "too much detail." As far as the guitar--how many people who are good lead guitarists would be just as good a bass guitarist? Not many, a couple of band members told me. Similarly, the Phantom character who is skilled in operatic singing would not do particularly well in a chromer band, as the styles are simply too different. >Likewise writing. TV writing in 2050 is a cross between computer >skill and Etiquette(Media). Other tastes may differ. My reporter character's player happens to be an English major--and she violently disagrees with this. Computer skill is "understanding computer technology and programming", and etiquette (media) is "functioning in the subculture without appearing out of place," i.e. knowing how to do and say the right things around media types. Neither of these includes much creativity, nor actual skill at writing something that will catch a viewer's attention. [Yes, that's why I said journalism in 2050 is computer and etiquette/media. Media doesn't want creativity, it wants ratings. Your mileage may differ, as I say.] Seriously, in a campaign with a rocker, a reporter, a theatre-type who is skilled in operatic singing, a decker, a mage, and a street sam, I *need* to have the same level of detail and specialization in artistic skills as in combat skills. Ananda ananda%[bsu decnet] at [msus1.msus.edu] /ananda%[b--u] at [msus1.msus.edu] \__if the .decnet ananda%[bsu decnet] at [msus1.bitnet] \ananda%[b--u] at [msus1.bitnet] / causes problems -------------------------- Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1991 15:12 CST From: ANANDA%[BSU DECNET] at [MSUS1.BITNET] Subject: New concentrations and specializations for skills >[You can buy a second concentration for the same price as the first, >although its more cost effective just to buy the general skill >instead. --CDR] What about Etiquette, where you are required to get a concentration? [The general skill of Etiquette can't be used itself, but you can buy it up and then buy concentrations from that.] My players and I have come up with several new concentrations and specializations for skills. Unarmed Combat Fist-fighting (brawling, boxing) Throws Grapple is renamed Wrestling (take-downs, holds, escapes) Electronics Security systems (while it is true that many security systems are tied into a computer, there are many that aren't...) Interrogation Verbal (interviewing) Machine-aided (torture) (sick, I know, but just the thing for your next cyberpsycho npc who is determined to get that tidbit of info that your players didn't know they had...) [ Umm, how about lie detectors and veracity scanners? Torture is Interrogation (Coercive), not (Machine Aided). --CDR] Physical threat (interrogation via intimidation) [ We usually just consider this as "defaulting to Strength" :-) --CDR] Negotiation Bargain (haggling, barter) Con (duping someone; presuading someone to do something they normally wouldn't do) Ettiquette Military Government "Underworld" (Yakuza, Mafia, Seoulpa rings, inter-group relations) Media (Journalists, Rockers, (other) Musicians, Actors, etc.) Military and Government specializations include: specific branches or departments inter-branch or department relations local- or state-level groups About the "Underworld" concentration: Although arguments can be made to include this under the Street concentration, the different groups listed as specialization possibilities are highly organized and have their own rules of conduct, which are very different from the rules of ettiquette that would apply to gangs and other Street elements. This would seem to argue for the various mob groups to be specializations of the Corporate concentration. However, the primarily illegal and extra-legal orientation of the mob groups does not fit the Corp. concentration. Making "underworld" its own concentration solves these problems. (We do need a better name for this one.) [I allow the Mafia/Yakuza/Seoulpa to be concentrations, or you can default to Street but won't know as much detail. Knowing you the Mafia operates tells you very little about Yakuza. I also allow specialization from Street to any of the three, or a particular gang, etc. You can also specialize in a particular gang from Tribal.] Languages Romance family: add Latin. While it may be true that not all of these concentrations or specializations will ever be needed, writing them up before they are needed is a good way for me to help maintain consistency. -- Ananda ananda%[bsu decnet] at [msus1.msus.edu] /ananda%[b--u] at [msus1.msus.edu] \__if the .decnet ananda%[bsu decnet] at [msus1.bitnet] \ananda%[b--u] at [msus1.bitnet] / causes problems -------------------------- Date: Tue, 9 Apr 91 19:18:48 -0700 From: Mary Kuhner <[m k kuhner] at [genetics.washington.edu]> Subject: Ghosts >From: Kent Jenkins <[j--k--s] at [magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu]> >So, although this is a rather vague question, what are Ghosts in Shadowrun and >how do you handle them? >I would imagine conjuring one specific spirit out of many would take a lot of >effort. Then again, are Ghosts strictly spirits, because if they are Mages >can't conjure them. I have two rather different answers, from characters in the same campaign; and I imagine there are others. It's not so well formalized as calling on spirits of place or of the elements, mainly because it is much more chancy--and, often, destructive of the magician. Not many mechanics here, I'm afraid; as a player I try not to learn too much more than my characters know. -- Yakeel is a shaman of the Yoruba tribe in Africa. Her opinion on ghosts: You have to understand about ghosts and Ancestors. When one of the People dies, their spirit goes to join the Ancestors in their realm. A shaman can go there and come back alive [via a spirit journey] but this is not something to do lightly, because there is always a price for it. The Ancestors watch over the People, especially their own descendants, but they are not the kind of spirits that a shaman can call to this world. At least, I have never met anyone who could. Magic that calls on them, like the warpaint we used to avenge the destruction of the village, sends the person who uses it to their realm. That is where their power is. Their power in this world is through the living, their children; though sometimes in great need they will send help in dreams. Now ghosts are another matter altogether. They are the spirits of men who did not reach the realm of the Ancestors--because they were too evil in life, or too caught up in what caused their death. A man whose son killed him, or a man who dabbled in black magic, he might become a ghost. A man who killed his own child might become a ghost. I know that a shaman could learn to call up such spirits from the place they haunt, but if you did that you would be prolonging their evil--it gives the ghost power, calling on it and making it important in this world again. The true spirits might turn against you if you did this. The thing to do with ghosts is send them away [banishment] before they can hurt the living, for that is all they can do. There is no good in a ghost, except as a warning about what not to do. I think a sorceror could learn to call ghosts too--probably using not the place of death, but something that belonged to the dead person, and using a big ritual the way sorcerors do. But it would be just as bad for a sorceror to do this as it would for me. If you depend on ghosts, you will lose power in this world, because the ghosts will take it from you. And your own spirit will not live among the ancestors. -- Ratty is a shaman of Seattle, from no discernable tradition--taught magic by the spirits of the streets at the Awakening. But no one will deny that he knows about ghosts. Only the spirits can teach you to call spirits; you can study all you want, but nothing will happen if they don't choose you. And only the ghosts can teach you to summon ghosts, as far as I know. They taught me. There was a burned-out place in Redmond haunted by Chalker and his gang, who had been enemies of ours, but honorable ones, and were killed by an enemy of both who had no honor at all. A friend of mine saw one of them at twilight, and told me about it. I was desperate for help, and I went there, to the ruins, at night. I asked the spirit of the place to lead me to the spot where the ghosts were strongest, and sat and waited for them. Chalker came to me, and we made a bargain--his power for my use, my aid for his revenge. He gave me a porcelain dog that carried his power and his gang's, a bit of each of them that I could call on. He told me there would be a price for this aid, but that he did not think it would be beyond my bearing. He was wrong, and it almost killed me, to be a shaman of the Rat and bound to the ghosts. I hadn't understood what they were. I thought they were men, dead men lingering. They are not; they are spirits, they have their own realm. Chalker's gift opened that place to me, and when I had mastered it I could call up the spirits of the dead. But like all spirits they ask everything from those who serve them; they make you like themselves. I had to do a fearful thing to save myself. I went journeying in dreams, and I came to a place where I could only agree to help Chalker, laying down my totem, or follow the path of my totem, laying aside the power of the dead. And I would not choose either way, and there was no other path from there except into death. I found the power in myself to bind Chalker to my will, and it didn't change anything. I could not do both, and I was promised to both. So I chose to die. I was needed here, and the Rat spared me; I could not have saved myself after I did that. I wish I had known Chalker as a man. He was a good healer and a loyal friend, a shaman of the Dog totem like my teacher. The ghost is not that. He gave the power of healing to me in his gift, for he could not use it himself; no power to heal or make grow, only to kill and terrify. I have sat at his feet and asked him to teach me, but he will not; only of vengeance and the ways to vengeance. Death took the man. What is left is like a spirit of vengeance, with one purpose only. If I can do what I promised him I would do he will be no more, and I will be glad. To call up a ghost there must *be* a ghost; many men leave no such thing. And the caller must have a tie to the realm they live in, as Chalker gave to me with his gift. I did not summon him, that first time; could not. It was more that he summoned me. I could summon him now, or even bind him, because I am part of that place, part of the lands at the edge of death. I will be glad to be done with that too. I swore to the Rat that I would give it up when the need was past. A sorceror could have done what I did. Her power would be different from mine; probably to conjure a ghost in the circle and bind it, and then call on its services later. I do not know what the price would be for someone like that. I've never seen it done. Someone not mageborn, like Jayhawk, would be possessed if they tried it; that would be the only way the ghosts could act through someone without the gift to use magic. I drove off the ghost that tried to take Jayhawk, but if she had been entirely willing maybe I would have failed. But if the link is there, it is simple enough. You need a place where the person lived, or a thing they made, or a bit of their body--that's easiest. And you call as you might call a spirit. If the ghost hates you, it will fight against you, and if it wins it will force you to serve its hatred. When we had killed Lefty I called up his ghost to learn the codes that would destroy his allies, and he almost took me. [An opposed success test, the ghost's Force against an appropriate stat or skill of the conjuror--Conjury itself, or Will, or Charisma, depending on how you imagine the contest to work.] It is very unsafe to conjure a ghost that hates you. It is not safe to conjure them at all. When a witch learned of Chalker and took her circle to try to banish him, he called me onto the spirit plane and to him, to defend him. I had no power to refuse. I can sacrifice them, the ghosts of Chalker and his gang, to aid my spells [for automatic successes]. I will know their names all my life, the ones I sacrifice. I could not do this if they were not willing to aid me, but that doesn't make it seem any better. I killed some of those people myself, before their enemy, our enemy, threw the switch that killed them all. I wonder if they will let me go when it is over. -- Mary Kuhner [m k kuhner] at [genetics.washington.edu] -------------------------- Date: Tue, 9 Apr 91 2:01:17 EDT From: [t--na--s] at [jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu] (Christopher Gulledge) Subject: Dragonbreath One thing that has puzzled me is what do Dragons use as a skill for their breath weapons? Essence is the only thing I can figure to use. Also with elementals, do you use force or quickness for their attack? The book says force but some times I wonder. And flame projection, A force three fire elemental could not hurt a five year old with flame projection. I had a mage lose control of a force three elemental. The elemental atacked the decker. Five rounds later the decker killed it. The elemental never even scorched her. Decker- Bod 2 Qui 4 unarmed 3 Thanatos -------------------------- Date: Tue, 9 Apr 91 2:01:17 EDT From: [t--na--s] at [jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu] (Christopher Gulledge) Subject: How to make players think? How do you get a group of players that refuse to think to actually think? I'm to the point that I'm ready to start killing them. However, I would like a less drastic solution if possible. I have told them what I expect, and I have refused any leway on this present run. So if they die, oh well. But my problem is that they roleplay their characters well. Except for the fact that my players have so little sense on criminal activities, the life blood of Shadowrun, they really are good players. How the hell does somebody, namely the GM, teach players how to B&E, Kidnap, assasinate, steal, etc. I'm not that good at it myself, but my plans are usually more than and I quote one of my players" let's just walk in the front door kill everyone we run into and steal what we need." the response- " Good plan" I almost screamed. It was supposed to be a quiet B&E and datasteal. The funny part is that I played the guards appropriately and they still lived! And the largest weapon was a SMG the players had. A lot of GMs have let their players get away with murder, I have seen groups with Monty Hall syndrom like you would not believe, and my group is very much not like that. I have just gotten very tired of having idiots, good role players but idiots none the less, play the game. I might just tell them to go back to playing D&D. Forgive my rambling, but I am extremely annoyed at them and I'm sure that you have had players do stupid enough things that you will understand my frustration. Any advice would be appriciated. Thanatos -------------------------- Date: Tue, 9 Apr 91 20:20:58 PDT From: [c d r] at [amd.com] (Carl Rigney) Subject: Re: Fire & making players think > One thing that has puzzled me is what do Dragons use as a skill > for their breath weapons? Essence is the only thing I can > figure to use. I stage a Dragon's breath weapon up with its Body [pause for readers to turn pale]; but my Dragons are nasty. (I also consider their armor to be vehicle armor, and creatures with Body above 12 to be vehicles for the purposes of damage; normal weapons halve power and staging and drop one damage level, e.g. assault rifles become 2L1.) For less horrifying dragons, using Essence to stage up the breath weapon is OK. > Also with elementals, do you use force or quickness for their > attack? The book says force but some times I wonder. I believe the Grimoire and the Paranormal Animals guidebook provide a better explanation of how that works. Engulfs use Quickness. For attacks, I like Quickness rather than Force. I give Fire elementals their force in dice to stage up the damage, and consider the power rating to be equal to their force for all fire elementals, not just great ones. Normally mine engulf instead of project. Note that you use your willpower, not combat skill, to attack manifested elementals, unless using a magic weapon or their vulnerability. And they get twice their force in automatic successes vs. ranged attacks. > 3) Also a bit of a problem that I may post to Flashlife. How do > you get a group of players that refuse to think to actually think? I wish I knew. :-) First consider whether they *want* to think, or are just looking for a beer&pretzels shoot 'em up. Assuming they want to run in the kind of thinking campaign you want to run, the best advice I can offer is "In nature there are neither rewards nor penalties, only consequences." If they succeed with lame plans, then they'll make lame plans, because that works. If lack of planning gets them killed, maybe the next set of characters will plan better. But it also depends on whether your *players* are any good at planning. > But my problem is that they roleplay their characters well. > Except for the fact that my players have so little sense on > criminal activities, the life blood of Shadowrun, they really > are good players. Well, maybe you're running the wrong kind of scenarios. Just because FASA says shadowrunners are all criminals doesn't mean your PCs have to be. Maybe they'd be better off as bodyguards, or street muscle, or just as soap opera. Play to their strengths. Or maybe they need to read some good crime novels; I'm quite fond of the "Burglar Who..." series by Lawrence Block. > I quote one of my players "let's just walk in the front door > kill everyone we run into and steal what we need." [...] The > funny part is that I played the guards appropriately and they > still lived! "Anything that works is better than anything that doesn't work." Maybe you need smarter or tougher guards. Its hard to argue with success. > And the largest weapon was a SMG the players had. That's good - avoid arms escalation. Design scenarios around the PCs' hooks. Set up situations that will require thinking to solve, not just brute force. I like no-win situations where the PCs have to decide between two very ugly choices, because 1) decision-making often illuminates characterization and 2) its very entertaining when they find a third way I'd never considered. > Forgive my rambling, but I am extremely annoyed at them and I'm > sure that you have had players do stupid enough things that you > will understand my frustration. Heh heh. My players are on flashlife, which I'm cc'ing this to, so I don't think I'll take the bait. -- Carl Rigney [c d r] at [amd.com] -------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Apr 91 22:50:04 EDT From: [t--na--s] at [jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu] (Christopher Gulledge) Subject: Re: How to make players think Actually I came up with an idea last night. One of my players came up with a mission that he wants to run. Since he's running I am playing. So I decided to take a character that will not be as much fun for me to play (my favorite character does not speak english all that well) However the character *may* be able to teach them a thing or two. I am actually going to try to make a few non-combat scenarios for my players. The kind that if you can't think your way out of them you wake up dead. They probably will not take the bait, They are not stupid they just won't think. Now that I've aired out one of my griefs I'l see what you think of the other. I have a wonderfully balenced team. (That is because in character creation I helped them and sort of made sure that toes would not get stepped on.) So why does no team function as a team? It amazes me that the only person who trys to act in a team spirit is the social character(like she is a fixer, almost), but the others refuse. I actually must make amends. The above mentioned character does try to think. She just doesn't understand the criminal acts and how to pull them off. A few of my players and I had a cchat last night and the topic of discussion was why they refuse to think and why they refuse to play as a team. I think they are going to try to play together this Friday. I'll let you know. At any rate, the Question of the day-- Any suggestions on how to get a team to play like a team? They sit, they brood, they mull, and when it comes time for a plan they stare blankly. Not because they cannot think of one, but because they refuse to say their ideas. The strategy and tactics discussion is led and consists of one person, and she knows that she has no concept of tactics and stratagy. The saddest part is that at least three of the other players have very strong grasps of the subject, they just decide for whatever reason not to use them. This may be a subset of the last question so if it is just kind of ignore it. Anyway maybe if they see themselves on flashlife (two of them read it) they will get embarassed enough to say an idea. Nah, it'll never work. One is the one who already tries and the other wouldn't say his ideas if he knew how to end world hunger. I'll quit babbling again. Thanks again for the ideas. Oh, just a side note. If you want a wonderful source of ideas, watch mission impossible. Tone them down some depending on their aptitude and reasources, but some of the plots are great. Thanks again, Thanatos -------------------------- Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1991 18:41 CST From: AVATAR%[BSU DECNET] at [MSUS1.BITNET] (Robert Hayden) Subject: Imaging Systems / Essence Rebuilding Greetings one and all from the quiet backstreets of uptowne Seattle. I've got two things to report: --------------------------------------------------------------------------- My local GM has combined some stuff from cyberpunk and other systems and then needed some clarification on the different type of imaging systems that I had taken. So I checked some military books and then she said to post my results here, so I am. Ultraviolet- Utilizes reflected ultraviolet radiation to highlight near objects which appear lighter, while objects at a distance appear darker. The representation is quite 2-dementional and little or no detail is available. *WILL* work through smoke, fire, dust, and other adverse conditions. UV light is available in all locations out-of-doors at any time of the day. UV will not work underground, in buildings or in other sheltered situations unless a source of radiation is provided. IR- Utilizes reflected infrared radiation to see. As the light wave is longer, it is able to bend and highlight detail much better that UV light. The representation is in 3-d. It will not work through adverse conditions and sunlight tends to hinder the operation although starlight or streetlight does not have that effect. IR will not work underground, in buildings, or in other sheltered situations unless a source of radiation is provided. Thermographic- Is the ability to see heat. Not to be confused with IR, which uses reflected light. Warm areas appear in reds to whites while cooler area appear violet to blue to black. This will operate through smoke, fog or other non-heat adverse conditions. Fire will make Thermo unusable and sudden bursts of heat can be blinding unless flare compensation is used. Wrapping oneself in materials that do not let heat escape is an effective defense. Equipment: IR scope 1,500 UV Scope 1,500 IR Binoculars 250 UV Binoculars 250 IR Goggles 700 UV Goggles 700 IR Cybereye 3,000 (.2 essence loss) UV Cybereye 3,000 (.2 essence loss) Helmet Light IR 250 Helmet Light UV 250 One of the other things that has cropped up is rebuilding essence for us chummers that have less that .1 left to something a little more realistic. The following system will allow the slow rebuilding of essence point. [I don't like this system, but I use something else entirely. Perhaps other readers will find it useful, though. --CDR] Cost in Karma: 10 plus the total amount of essence will yield you a 1 point essence increase. (eg. If you want your total essence to go from 6 to 7, it will cost you 17 Karma points.) At no time can the total essence exceed 12. Rationalization: The human (humanoid???) body has a remarkable capacity to adapt of adverse conditions. If essence represents the health of your nural network and spirit, it can be reasoned that given the time (karma points), the body will learn to accept intrusive cyberware or biological grafts and the amount of available essence will slowly rise. This also allows those poor schmucks who have less than .1 essence to get new arms put on when they get shot off. -- Robert "Scooby" A. Hayden avatar%[bsu decnet] at [msus1.bitnet] avatar%[bsu decnet] at [msus1.msus.edu] [curb your .signature, please; I hate having to edit them down to reasonable size. Thanks! --CDR] -------------------------- Date: Sat, 20 Apr 91 19:48:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew David Weiland <[aw 1 s] at [andrew.cmu.edu]> Subject: Shadowrun ideas Just bought the Shadowrun game recently (two weeks ago). Here are a few of my thoughts on it: *** One of the biggest problems with the physical adept is the extra successes combined with the ability to make lethal attacks with their hands. I find this unrealistic; not because physical adepts can kill with a blow, but because they are the only ones that can do so. I also thought about a few other features of martial arts, and what could be done with them in Shadowrun, and came up with the following: Martial Arts Martial Arts is a concentration of the unarmed combat skill. It is limited to those attacks which use only hands and feet (though other styles are martial arts in the common definition). The only common denominator is that martial arts emphasize science over speed and strength. There are at present two specializations involving this skill; killing attacks and stunning attacks. To me killing attacks seems pretty similar to karate, and stunning attacks to jujitsu (?). Killing Attacks A skilled unarmed combatant can inflict lethal damage with only his hands and feet. The exact amount of damage a character can inflict is based on their unarmed combat skill, concentrations in martial arts, or specialization in killing attacks. This reflects the fact that a brawler can make deadly attacks, but isn't as good at it as a trained martial artist. For all unarmed killing attacks, the target number is increased by 1 (to 5, 4 if the character has a longer reach than his opponent). Damage for killing attacks is (Strength)L1 for skill 3, (Strength)M1 for skill 6, and (Strength)S1 for skill 10. A skill 6 martial artist can choose to make L1 attacks instead of M1, and a skill 10 martial artist can make all three sorts of attacks. Physical Adepts must buy extra successes for unarmed killing attacks separately. Cost is 1.5 points per additional success. Stunning Attacks Stunning Attacks inflict fatigue damage, like normal (fist) attacks, but the staging is increased. Staging is based on the character's unarmed combat skill, concentration in martial arts, or specialization in stunning attacks. Damage is (Strength)M2 for skill 3, (Strength)M3 for skill 6, and (Strength)M4 for skill 10. There is no penalty to target numbers, but remember that staging also affects a character's chance of increasing the wound level of an attack. Because target numbers are not increased, a physical adept's extra successes for normal unarmed combat also apply to stunning attacks (i think so; individual GMs may rule otherwise). I'd like to see other martial arts depicted in Shadowrun style, perhaps as additional specializations in the martial arts concentration. Especially interesting would be Aikido (force based on your opponent's Strength?) and Tae Kwon Doh (manuver arts; improved reach?). *** Does anybody besides me think that tech priorities 3 and 4 (for nonmages) are too powerful? A character with tech priority 3 can buy all of the equipment, cyberware, and programs he can use. The Rigger, Street Samurai, and Decker archetypes are all structured around tech priority 3. All of them (excepting the Decker) have pretty much the best equipment they can use. If one of these classes were to take priority 4, and sacrifice a few skill or attribute points, they could buy enough equipment for the whole party (and deckers could throw in a MPCP 9 deck besides). This is also somewhat annoying because the Gang Member and Tribesman archetypes are also structured around tech priority 3 (necessary if they want a connection to a tribe or gang) and they don't have nearly as much investment in tech as the other archetypes. I think that the nonmage tech awards for priority 3 and 4 should be halved. Riggers, Deckers, and Samurai who are serious about Shadowrunning will have to take tech priority 4 (500,000 nuyen). Tribesman, Gang Members, and other tech-3 types who aren't tech oriented will have to sacrifice a few *** Initiation: Is too powerful, but it's a cool idea. The raised magic rating isn't too powerful. Masking and the metaplanes should definitely stick around. But quickening should disappear, improved spell defense should probably do so too. Centering is a very interesting concept, but it shouldn't be so useful in combat. I'd say centering a spell should take time; maybe 1 round for each point of force of the spell (the time it takes to center a spell isn't explicitly mentioned in the rules; unless i'm missing something). I also don't get how centering can negate penalties for cover, but i guess this is magic and we can't understand everything. -- Andrew D. M. U. Weiland [aw 1 s] at [andrew.cmu.edu] -------------------------- End of Flashlife **************************