Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns,soc.culture.usa,alt.politics.clinton,alt.president.clinton,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.journalism.criticism,misc.headlines,alt.politics.org.batf
From: [g--y] at [hawkmoon.mn.org] (Bill Gray)
Subject: Re: VIDEO OF FLAME THROWING TANKS EXISTS (Was Re: BATF Cover-up Attempt for Waco, TX Massacre)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1993 02:31:28 GMT

[z s tewart] at [nyx.cs.du.edu] (Zhahai Stewart) writes:

>>Are you asserting that no-knock searches are ever "reasonable?"
>>The BD were no immediate threat to anyone.

>Yes, they demonstrated that pretty well during the first minutes of the
>raid, didn't they.  How in the h*ll could the government have possibly 
>thought the BDs could have been any threat to anybody?  Obviously it was
>a group of peaceful folks who only stockpiled their guns for legitimate
>self defence against each other (yes, they were acquitted and/or the
>cases were dropped - when Koresh's folks killed off the earlier leadership
>two years earlier), or burglars or target shooting or hunting.  They would
>clearly NEVER have used force to resist arrest under any circumstances.

>Subsequent events sure proved that, didn't they?

>(Note to the hasty: I am NOT saying that the BATF raid was justified.  I am
>just tired of the silly beatification of the BDs, the assertion that there
>was no way anybody could have considered them dangerous so any assessment
>to that effect by the BATF must have been completely stupid and blind.  I
>think the BATF blew it, but not NEARLY so "obviously" as some people like to
>believe.)

Mr Stewart,

You appear to believe the BATF version of the initial raid.  The version I
(and most other critics of the raid and its aftermath) believe is the one
first published by the AP that said the shooting started when the BATF threw
grenades into the ranch house.

BATF has an absolutely appalling record in law enforcement.  They are a
laughingstock, widely despised by both Federal and state/local agencies.
You will, of course, be able to find an obedient stooge in a local cop
uniform to say he once worked with a BATF agent who was professional and
easy to work with, but he will be lying.  A more accurate picture emerges
from the Senate subcommittee investigation into BATF in 1982.  If anything,
things have gotten far worse there.

The point is that there is no evidence that the BDs killed any BATF agents.
Somehow, the autopsy reports have been "misplaced."  There is reason to
believe that the Feds who died on 28 Feb died of "friendly fire."  There
is reason to believe that the BATF attacked that home with no intention of
making any peaceful approach because they wanted some spectacular footage
from their tame lapdog media whores, conveniently in tow.

There is equally no evidence that I have seen that the BDs used any
machineguns (automatic weapons) at any time in the raid or later.

From Koresh's point of view, BATF had fulfilled the predictions he had made
and sunk to the worst-case scenario he had constructed.  Given that
monumental stupidity on the part of Our Masters in Washington, what on
Earth would make him think that the next bunch of thugs would be any safer
to surrender to?  The tapes of dying rabbits screaming through the night?
The amplified sounds of dental drills?  The tanks running around the house
and making sudden runs up towards it, only to stop at the last second?  The
forced removal of the independent media?  The listening devices smuggled in
with the baby diapers and milk?  Or the shooting at unarmed people who
went to the well to get water for the thirsty children inside?

Virtually all we know about Koresh during the siege is what those who killed
him want us to know.  But we know plenty about those who killed him.  People
who defend Koresh do not do it because they knew and loved him, but
because they know and fear his killers.

Maybe the FBI is not a thoroughly corrupt and diabolically infiltrated as
their conduct of this atrocity makes it look.  Maybe only 1 in 10 of them is
the kind of butcher that would blow the face off a woman holding her 10
month old baby.  But Koresh's reluctance to trust the monsters who later
burned him out and bulldozed the site after planting all the evidence they
thought they would need is solid evidence of his rationality, not his
irrationality.

Your mileage may vary.  Maybe you will go peaceably when the nice
stormtroopers come for you.  Maybe you will even win in court, after being
jailed, maybe raped physically, certainly subjected to the same demonization
and character assassination Koresh was, certainly losing every material thing
you ever had and being utterly ruined financially and professionally.

I'm not sure which victory is more Pyrrhic, the one you seek, or the one
Koresh won.  I agree that we have political issues to address to reduce the
number of law-enforcement joyrides.  I agree that vigorous prosecution of
Rambocops is vital, and that a spirited defense needs be made of anyone
similarly attacked.  I would hope that massive civil awards could be won
by the aggrieved.  In short, I would hope that the entire political and
legal system of the country would be mobilized to deter another Waco.

But I will not condemn Koresh for fighting the monsters who, under color of
law, came to terrorize, defame, and destroy.

Regards,

Bill
-- 
[g--y] at [hawkmoon.mn.org]
This site gets a fair news feed, but e-mail is more reliable. . . :-(
"Veni, vidi, vomiti!" - the ghost of Tom Jefferson on reading the Brady Bill